Ditch Hustle Culture And Have a Thriving Business.

Guest Interviews
Written By Linsi Brownson

Be Brilliant In Your Business Podcast, Episode 93 with special guest Caitlin Shannon

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My guest today is Caitlin Shannon, owner of Ember & Co., a website design-build for purpose-driven businesses.

Caitlin is an incredible example of a small business owner who has created a successful life by choosing to focus on providing excellent service rather than chasing growth tactics.

We talk about "the rules" and why to break them, tips and tools to create boundaries with your clients, and how to maximize your creative output without burning yourself out.

Prefer to read this interview? Scroll down for the transcript below.

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    Key Takeaways

    1. Marketers make it seem like growth equals success. Forget that! You don't need to want or have a scaleable business in order for it to be successful. You can decide to "stay small" and love the business you have.

    2. Set boundaries with yourself and others that support your time, energy and creativity. There are lots of tools to help you automate and improve communication (she shares a handful that she uses). Two that Caitlin mentioned are Dubsado (my fave for pretty much all your back-office client management) and Zapier (which can help you automate almost anything). I can help you design and build your ultimate operations systems - without the stress headache! If you want to know more, schedule a free strategy call with me.

    3.  Your role as a service provider is to ease your client's anxieties. That's the real reason people hire you, so the more you step into your expertise to guide their experience and communicate expectations clearly, the more comfortable and satisfied they will be with the process.

    4. Get to know your energy and creative capacity, and schedule around it. You are not meant to work at the same pace as everybody else. It can be hard to accept this because we are conditioned to work harder, faster, longer, and constantly trying to achieve more. But creativity requires inspiration, action, and rest.

    5. Be the example of the result your clients are looking for. People often want to work with professionals who practice what they preach. It's about more than delivering good service, the personality fit of your dream client is someone who respects your approach to your work. If you want clients who are responsive, organized, honest, etc...you will get them by being that kind of business owner.

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    Transcript

    Linsi Brownson 0:08

    You are listening to be brilliant in your business, the podcast for busy business owners to take charge of your time and energy to create meaning and momentum in your life. I'm your host, Lindsey Brownson, certified coach and seasoned entrepreneur, and I know what it takes to run a thriving small business that works for your life.

    Join me for an honest look into the minds of small business owners as I share with you stories, coaching and solutions to the biggest problems that keep people from realizing their dreams.

    Before we dive into today's episode, I want to welcome new listeners. I'm so glad you're here. And I look forward to being part of your brilliant business. Be sure to hit the subscribe button, because we've got new episodes for you each week. Are you ready? Let's go.


    Linsi Brownson 1:01

    Hello, Caitlin. Welcome to the show.


    Caitlin 1:03

    Hi, thank you for having me.

    Linsi Brownson 1:06

    I am so excited to have you on we were just chatting before the recording about how excited I am. So I'm going to tone it down.


    Caitlin 1:14

    It's mutual. We do love each other.


    Linsi Brownson 1:17

    So that's a great starting point. I want to jump in, give a quick intro to you and how we know each other, how we're connected. So I'll just start. I know you obviously because we've been working together for a number of years. Do you even know how long?



    Caitlin 1:32

    I don't know, I want to say it was around when I went full time. So probably since at least 2017?


    Linsi Brownson 1:38

    I would think okay, but I all agree to that. That sounds great. So we've been working together You've been my number one go-to for website design. You're a WordPress genius, you used to do branding and logos and graphic design, and just all kinds of things. You're such a fabulous service provider and just giving such excellent service. And you're really good at what you do, which to be honest, is hard to find. Yeah. So I'm a big fan of yours. And I wanted to have you on for a number of reasons. But I'm getting off track already. Give us a little overview, what is it that you do?



    Caitlin 2:27

    Yeah, so as you mentioned, these days, I'm focusing mostly on web design. And within that mostly on WordPress, I come from a pretty varied design background, my dad was actually a creative director and ad agency here that was really big and popular for almost my entire childhood. So I grew up around it, I was used to it.

    When we got my sister and I got into high school, and my parents were trying to come up with big gifts to give us they, you know, kind of got my sister into snowboarding. So her big gifts were always snowboards and snowboarding boots and ski passes and you know, whatever. And I was never really into that. So they got me a laptop, and I started playing around on it. And that was back in the MySpace days. So I got into just completely pimping out my MySpace profile, and then all my friend's profiles. And then we got into blogging on like, I think it was called Sangha. And I got into those templates and figured out how I could go into like, the CSS code and change the colors of my backgrounds or at images. And I just thought that was so cool.

    And so around that time I decided, you know what "I think I'm going to get into design, I'm going to follow in my dad's footsteps." So I went to design school, got an Associates of science in just kind of general graphic design, and then got a job in house agency, working for one company doing all of their design and branding and packaging, and all of that, and kind of naturally started my business on the side. Because it seems like in the design world, once somebody knows you're a designer, then inevitably people start coming to you. Your friends need a logo, your mom needs a business card. So I just kind of organically got into it and did it on the side for about probably five or six years. All while I still had my full-time job, which was kind of tough at times, I would get up sometimes at four in the morning and go to Starbucks and you know, work for two or three hours and then go to my full-time job or fit it in on the weekends. And then around 2017 I felt like my corporate job kind of was running out of room like I felt like I had gone as far as I could go in that role. And there was, you know, some internal drama as there always seems to be.

    And my boyfriend at the time, now husband, was like "you just need to take your business full time." And at the time, I was absolutely petrified, I hated the idea because I was like, "Nah, I like my paychecks. I like my salary. I like knowing what I'm going to make, down to the penny every two weeks." And I think it's terrifying to just go out and not know where my money is coming from or where my next client was coming from. But he was like, You know what, I think you can do it, you're smart. You're, you know, you say you're risk averse, but it actually works in your favor, because you've already got savings, you know, you've got plenty of money to work with. If it doesn't work out, you know, in a few months, you can just go get another job. So I was like, Well, okay, I guess I'll try it.

    And I quit, but my two weeks in and started my freelancing full time. And the advantage of doing it on the side for so long was that I'd already built up several clients that were ongoing clients that I had a great relationship with. So I was able to put out emails to them and say, Hey, you know, fun news, I'm full time. Now, if you have more work, you want to send my way. Or if you have, you know, friends or colleagues that have been looking for somebody, I'd love to help them, and just kind of hit the ground running. And I made my revenue goal, like the first month. And so it's been a wild ride. And I was initially trying to offer everything, you know, all the designs, all the things, branding, you know, all sorts of graphic design, and I still will offer that to a lot of my ongoing clients. But I really kind of came back to my first love for you know, pimping out my MySpace profile, working with, you know, little blog templates. And I realized that I'm really I'm an equal right brain left brain, which is kind of weird in the creative field. But yes, yeah, for me, it I think that's what I love about web design is that it's, it works, it feeds both sides of my brain, like I get to be kind of analytical and strategic, and I get to get into the code. But I also get to create pretty things. And that really satisfies that right-brain side of me. And I've always said that I like to create order out of chaos. So it's really wild to me that you can type a bunch of characters into code. And then it just pops out this beautiful design. So. So that's kind of where I'm at now. Now, I, I focus mostly on web, and I love it. And I think it's great. And especially in this day and age, you know, post Coronavirus, and the world we live in now it's so important to have an online presence. So I really enjoyed being able to help my clients really build that and you know, build something that reflects them.



    Linsi Brownson 7:50

    That is awesome. And I have so many, so many bullet points. I'm like, Oh, we need to talk about that we can go a lot of different directions. So the first thing that I want to say is that the way that you describe that one of the very first things you said was how it's funny when you're a designer, all it really takes is a few people to know your designer and everybody kind of needs that at some point. And I think that is true. I love that your boyfriend, your husband was so supportive and really was championing you to get over some of those initial fears. But that what struck me was how simple it really was for you to get your business off the ground. And part of this is what I know of you as well.

    But I know you've been booked solid since day one. Yeah, like you've never really needed to do marketing and, you know, traditional marketing and email marketing and so many of the things that so much of the work, we're going to talk about the hustle culture around being a business owner, you've just been able to avoid that. Now, I know part of this is intentional, right? Because you don't believe in it. But it's also you took this simple approach to starting your business by staying in your full time job while you build up a clientele that you had great relationships with. And really getting your name out in the world. And that allowed you to not have to try to do so many things at once to be able to just focus on what is the most important thing to a brand new baby business which is clients right right.



    Caitlin 9:35

    Yeah, and I it's interesting I was just thinking about this the other day cuz I actually used to feel a lot of shame around the fact that I don't do a lot of outbound marketing. Like I know I should have a social media strategy and I just really don't like I post things but I don't have this content calendar super planned out. I do said I don't do email marketing, like I collect email addresses. isn't so far that's as far as they've gotten collected. And I used to be like, What is wrong with me like I should be doing? That's what all business owners do, they do outbound marketing.

    And I had heard some people, you know, will kind of try to scare you and do it. And they'll say, Well, if all of your business is word of mouth or referral, you're putting, you're basically putting your fate in their hands rather than your own, which I do, I do understand that thought process. And that's what would spook me. But the more I thought about it, I was like, you know, I do market my business, but I, it's through my client experience, and that's how I've excelled is that I just focus on really serving my clients well, and giving them a great experience. And then it's, they they make it effortless for me to continue my business because they're so happy to come back and work together. They, you know, will joke that they love coming up with excuses to work together. And you know, in what, Stickley refer their friends and their family members and their colleagues. And I've always been really honored by that. Because when someone refers you there, they're sticking their reputation on you to deliver what they're saying you're going to deliver. So I don't take it lightly that my business is, you know, price, probably 97% word of mouth, and referrals.

    And I just at one point, I was like, You know what, I'm just gonna lean into it, like, I'm just gonna keep loving on my clients, and they keep sending people my way. And I would say the return rate for clients for me is probably I would say, you know, 70 to 80% of my clients will come back to me and continue working together. So for me, that's by far, the best marketing strategy. Yeah. And then all the leads that come in, when they've been referred, they're instantly a warm lead, because someone they trust has said that they trust you. So I find that those sales call, so to speak, and that being much more effortless, it's more enjoyable, like we get to just get to know each other and make sure that we click, and it's not this really salesy feeling for either of us. So I've just kind of leaned into that.



    Linsi Brownson 12:25

    That's so awesome. And that's exactly why I wanted to talk with you. I really do think so obviously, your business model your service provider, and you are solo with, you know, a little bit of a team, but you're primarily solo, and you're focused on working with a handful of clients at a time, and even more. So now, as you said before, streamlined into what you do and what you don't do. So you're doing less now, in terms of the services you offer. And you're focused on a handful of clients. And so certainly that is a type of business model. But I think it's a type of business model that a lot of my listeners really want they desire a lifestyle kind of business.

    Yep. And and really the messaging that I think so many of us hear on social media particularly is the opposite, right, is that you shouldn't be in this mindset of always growing, that you should be trying to figure out how to leverage and scale and work less and be more hands off. And so I really, I've always thought of you as such a wonderful example of someone who has taken it into consideration, right that, like,there's a lot of ways I could go with my business. But what really feels good to me, is continuing to provide services, because you're excited about the work that you're doing. Because you believe so much in the people that you're working with, and the projects that they're doing that you're really able to put your creative, like enthusiasm behind it as well. And I think that that's challenging because of so much of what we hear about marketing, what you should be doing, you said that and I loved it, like lit up when you're like I should have an email list. And that made me laugh because I think that's so true. I think all of us and I do the same thing, even knowing better.

    But I still am having that same internal conversation very frequently where it's like, No, you should be releasing new download freebies every week, every podcast episode, and you shouldn't be doing that. So you should be doing that. So very long winded way of saying like, I love how you've really taken the growth of your business in stride in a way that you're constantly like moderating how much energy you're willing to put into growing your business versus running your business and actually living a lifestyle that you enjoy. Would you say that that is accurate?



    Caitlin 14:51

    Yes, I would say it's very accurate. I I learned pretty early on in my career that I am not somebody who thrives working 6080 100 hours a week, I just turned into an absolute basket case, I tried it when I had gotten fresh out of you know, I was fresh out of college and I was doing an internship alongside a full time job. And so it's working like 60 hours a week, which isn't uncommon for a lot of people. And maybe some people are just superhuman, I don't know, but I just fell apart. Like, I couldn't do it, like, I'd show up and I would do my job. But I knew my creativity was suffering, I knew I wasn't showing up at my best I was exhausted. And most important importantly, to me, my personal relationships were, like, totally neglected by that decision, because I just had nothing left to give. And so when I went full time with my business, I knew, because I can tend towards perfectionism and I tend towards people pleasing. And I love to make people happy that I would be very, very tempted to put in a ton of hours and I kind of did early on just while I was figuring out my process and making it you know, kind of having trial and error experiences of realizing have overbooked myself, and then learning how to scale back and I, at least as a creative, if I burn out, I, my creativity just it just disappears, it evaporates I so that I would end up in this snowball of frustration of I'm so tired, I'm so spent, I have to get this work done. But now this work that should have taken me two hours is taking me six hours, because I don't have the mental or creative energy left to give. And then I would have to send stuff off. That was it was good. But I knew like I had more to give. And I just I couldn't because I was on empty. So I learned pretty quick that working less actually made me a better business owner. And having boundaries actually serves my clients better. Because I can show up much more fully and more enthusiastically when I've gotten sleep. And I've eaten and I've spent time with my loved ones. And taking that time to mentally recharge. So I knew pretty early on that that would be one of my like foundational work values is that I would not overwork, I won't, I almost never will work nights I don't work weekends, I usually when I take vacation, I almost never take work with me. When I log out at night, I literally have an extension on my email that pauses my inbox so that even if I'm tempted to look at it from my phone, I can't see if somebody emailed me something. And it felt really silly at the time. But it's become really important. And it's actually how I deliver a better client experience. Because I can actually show up 100% instead of running at 25% all the time, and then thinking I'm being productive when really, you know, my works not as good. I'm not as happy. My clients aren't as happy. So I've just kind of hustle culture. Like it's almost like nails on a chalkboard to me for those reasons. Maybe I can do it, but not me, not this girl. So just had to learn that about myself and really embrace it and lean into that.



    Linsi Brownson 18:41

    Yeah. So what are some of the things that you do to help balance and keep yourself organized, and you know, and be able to feel like, you can log off at the end of the day, I realize this is the decision that you make, but like what are some of the elements that help you kind of keep track of your process?



    Caitlin 18:59

    Yeah, so kind of, as I mentioned, like learning boundaries was a big one for me, because I am somebody who is very quick to just completely run myself over for other people. And it's very, very tempting, especially as a service provider. So I really had to work on that. And so a lot of it was trial and error, you know, overstepping my own boundaries burning out, realizing that didn't work stepping back. But now that I've had some time, like you said, a lot of it is just simple little choices that I make that make it easier to step away. So things like pausing my inbox, it just removes the temptation entirely to check my email at 8pm when I should be relaxing, I don't even have the option really. So it kind of removes that temptation from me which I need sometimes. And then just little things I learned that communication with my clients is huge. I used to be really worried that my clients would get upset at me if I wasn't available 24 seven, if I didn't respond within an hour, if you know I missed their phone call that you know, was unscheduled, but still, you know, I don't want to miss their phone calls. And I would go on vacation and work the whole time. And then I would realize like, this is so silly like what I'm not now I'm doing neither well, like I'm not doing my work well, because I'm distracted because I'm on vacation. But I'm also not vacationing well, because I'm focused on my work. And I can't do both, I can only do them well when I do them one at a time. And so I started really working on how I communicated my boundaries. And I actually had a really sweet client, who approached me or pretty early on, when I was first getting started and was struggling with my boundaries. And it instead of being hyper responsive, it was almost just overwhelming me, and then it would take me longer to respond. So I'd see all these emails in my inbox. And then I would leave them unread. thinking, Oh, it'll be like a to do like, seeing that as unread reminds me, I have to do it. And then, you know, a few days would go by and I hadn't responded. And she was like, you know, it's weird, because you're so organized when I talk to you, and I totally trust you. But just speaking from an outside perspective, like, I just want to know what the expectation is, so that I know if things are on track or not, like if I know you're not gonna respond for a few days, then I can set that expectation in my head. And it's not a problem. But if I don't know that I start to worry and get anxious and like, did she get my email is she purposely ignoring me? What's happening. And so I started to realize it really was as simple as just acknowledging and communicating well, so sometimes even if I couldn't get to like the meat of the email, I would just ping back and say, Hey, I got your email, I'm reviewing it. Now give me a day to, you know, respond and give you my full attention. And then they were totally fine, you know, and so I started to learn like, Okay, then I'm just going to tell people like, I put it in my email signature now that I check my email once or twice a day. And they can expect a response within I think, 24 to 48 hours. And then I've noticed that they don't panic if I don't respond to them right away. So they know. And I've done a lot of like, with onboarding, I usually tell them like, I can't live in my inbox, because every minute that I'm in my inbox is a minute that I'm not actually doing real work, like on your project, or, you know, doing things that I've been hired to do. So I need to, you know, limit how often I check my inbox. I don't accept unsolicited phone calls anymore. I don't worry about it. If somebody calls me, that's totally fine. And they can leave a voicemail, and I will get back to them. But I don't feel the pressure anymore to just answer right out right away. And they know that, you know, they know how to reach me if it's, if it's an urgent situation. So kind of just removes that pressure for me. And they know they can schedule like, I have a call scheduler, which works great, because then they know, they can just schedule a call for a time that works for them. And I'll show up every time. So by setting those boundaries, that it helps me to be really reliable, but then also not burn myself out. And I've had, I've done little things like I got really into automating little things with Zapier in dubsado, but Zapier, you know, I can do things like, have it, send me a text message automatically if someone pays me or if someone schedules a call with me. Or if they write urgent anywhere in the subject of their email, then it texts me right away. And lets me know so that then I know, okay, if it's not urgent, it's totally fine. If I check it in, you know, 12 hours or whatever. But if it is urgent, I will get a text right away, and then I can look at it immediately. So it kind of helps me to not feel like it's me or them. Because I think that's the trap I get into is, well, if I'm taking care of me, it means I'm neglecting my clients. And that's not fair. So getting over that by putting little systems in place has been super helpful, because then I know I'll get the message if it's really important. But if it can wait, then great. You know, everybody's fine. That's been I've been really clear. If I'm taking time off, like if I take a vacation, and it's planned, then it's already worked into our project timelines. It's, I add that to my email signature as well so that people start to see it and know that I'll be gone. And I used to think that the world would implode if I took, you know, a week off. But that's it like my clients all survive and They're fine. And they're usually proud of me for taking the time off, because I have great clients. So it's kind of been a mix of putting those little automations in place, like the urgent email reminder or the urgent email texts so that I can rest easy knowing I will get the memo if, if it's important. And then, like, you kind of mentioned that working on my processes has been really huge. It takes time upfront, but I found that when I, when I offer a service, I try to make it a package service. So like a standard website, or a landing page, or, you know, back in the day branding, like a like a logo package, I sat down one day, and I just listed out every single task that creates that website or that brand, and every single step that I need the client's input on, and I put it all in a spreadsheet, and I even estimated out the hours for each task like on average, you know, this task takes me three hours, this task takes me two hours. And I put it together in a little project timeline, which I've found my clients actually appreciate, like I used to let them mine. Yeah. And I thought that was like, I don't know, compassionate of me, like, Oh, you can just choose how we move along. And what would happen is that we would just not make any progress because they're busy, and they have a million things going on. And they don't know how long things are going to take me. And so then they would give me an unrealistic deadline. And then I would get bitter about it. It's like, well, that's not fair, they have no idea how long this takes me. And so I started just setting timelines, and I literally send my clients like an itemized project timeline of every single task and when it will be done, assuming that they get their feedback to me on time, which also incentivizes them, you know, we're like, oh, shoot, like, if I get everything to her on time, we can launch by x date. And then I'm just very clear that like, unless something crazy happens, I will hit my deadlines. So if you want to hit your lunch date, all you have to do is hit your deadlines, and I give them more time than I give myself. So I've found that doing stuff like that really calms me down, because I know what to expect. And I can book projects out three months in advance and know what I'm working on, you know, that one Thursday in June, you know, already have it scheduled, which kind of gives me peace of mind. But then it's it also helps my clients in it gets rid of the being xiety on their part of like not knowing what to expect.



    Caitlin 27:45

    So that's been a big part of it. Because I think I I'm very prone to getting overwhelmed. So early on in my business, I didn't have it so buttoned up, you know, I didn't have project timelines, I would just commit to something, and then ask them when their deadline was, and then I'd say okay, great. And then I would get to Friday afternoon at 3pm. And I would still have 12 client tasks to get done. And I'd realize, wow, that's just not going to happen. Man, I would feel super rushed through everything. And then I inevitably have to circle back to some of the clients and say, Hey, I'm so sorry. Like, I can't get it done today. I'll get it to you Monday, and then I'd have a super stressful weekend. And I realized quickly that it was kind of a classic case of over promise under deliver. And I was so concerned about making them happy by just agreeing to the timelines that I would end up coming off as less reliable because I was over promising my time I was over promising my energy. I couldn't get things done on that timeline. And I realized that most of my clients were totally happy to go with my timeline, as long as it meant that that's what I could do that I would fill it. So most of my clients, even if I tell them, Hey, I'm super swamped, but I will get this to you by next Thursday. They're usually like, Okay, great, because they know, like, I will get it to them that Thursday, if not sooner. So it's kind of you have to flip it over so that you're doing you know what you shouldn't be doing, which is under promising over delivering. And that creates a much better experience for the client. Because if I tell them, like, Hey, I'll get it done Thursday, but then I end up with a little bit of extra space. And I get it done on Wednesday, well then that's just exciting. You know, like, Oh, cool. It's done early. Whereas if I had gotten really worried about it and said, Oh, don't get it done on Monday, even though there's no time and then I get it done Tuesday, even though that would be earlier still. You know, the experience is totally different for the client and it just leaves them With this anxiety of, I don't know if she's actually gonna get stuff done. And like you said, I for some reason, I see that a lot in the creative industry. And even with like designers I've contracted before. So yeah, one thing I've found is that clients would much rather the timeline Be realistic and dependable, then for you to try to get them get it to them sooner when it's not realistic. In something I heard, I wish I remember who it was, but one of the guests on your podcast recently had said that, um, they often overestimated how much time they have in their day, and that we try to translate it from a, like a typical nine to five job. So you know, in my past job, I thought, Oh, I, I'm there from eight to five, with a, you know, lunch break in there. So I'm working at least eight hours. But realistically, I wasn't sitting down with my, you know, nose to the table, like really focusing for more than like, maybe two or three hours, and the rest of meetings and distractions and, you know, people popping in my office. And so I've learned, especially with really mentally taxing creative work that I cannot budget eight hours a day, because I will be spent by the end of the day. So I kind of through trial and error, just learn like, Okay, my absolute max on a super productive day is six hours of creative work, because that also leaves time for, you know, emails, and admin and phone calls. And you know, things like that, without just constantly bleeding through my boundaries, and working late into the evening. And nowadays, a lot of times, I've learned if it's a really deep creative task, like back when it was my logo, concepting days, or, like big strategy days, for my Web Designs, I schedule even less work than that. So I'll tell myself, okay, I have three or four hours, because I've just learned, if I book past that, that I will start to burn out, you know, even in these like little micro bursts of burnout, you know, burning up during that, you know, where all of a sudden, I have nothing left to give, but I've committed to this deadline, you know, that's just not, it doesn't deliver the best product for the client, and it doesn't make me happy. And so I just kind of learned like, it's okay to know your limits and embrace them. And it's actually something I think you and I actually talked about this on a random phone call, like a year or two ago. And I was talking about how I was learning more and more about my personality and like, who I am and how I tick. And that a lot of times I felt very non entrepreneurial, like my personality is very risk averse. I love security. I love stability. I thrive when expectations are clear. And there's merging in my day, and in a lot of ways, I was looking at all a lot of my business friends who are much more theory of typical entrepreneurial type, super driven, and they would work, you know, 12 to 18 hour days, and they they'd at least claim that they loved it. And they were so passionate. I'd be like, Man, what am I doing? Like? Why am I a business owner? I obviously do not fit in with this crowd. Yes. And I remember you telling me that you loved the way that I had built my business because it was so me, it just reflected who I was and how I like to work. And it actually has ended up resonating with a lot of my clients who are also feeling, you know, super burnt out and super rushed and frazzled.



    Caitlin 34:04

    And I actually had a client once Tell me, we were talking about it. And she was like, you know, when I work with you, I picture myself sitting in a boat. And the waves are just like gently lapping against the edge of the boat and I feel so peaceful. And she's like, that's what it's like working with you. So I don't want you to lose that by thinking that you need to, you know, be the super driven typical kind of stereotypical entrepreneur like what you have to offer is really valuable and it's really refreshing to everyone else who's a business owner and is feeling super overwhelmed. And she's like, I just I, I honestly look forward to our interactions because they don't stress me out. I know. You purposely create margin in our projects, and you're very thoughtful in your approach. And you won't tell me that you're going to commit to something unless you can actually do it. And so I just don't even have to stress about it. I just know like, you'll get something to me when you say you will, and you will respond to me kind of like you said, it's just that built up reliability of, yeah, maybe I won't respond in an hour, maybe I will. But I definitely will respond in probably within, you know, a day or so. And so even though I feel like I'm setting these really intense boundaries, like oh, my gosh, it's 3pm. And I'm not going to check my email until 10am. Tomorrow, like, it feels like this really daring, like, bold move. But for clients who are busy and have their own lives, like just the fact that I respond, you know, in a timely manner makes me actually look like I'm responding faster than other people who are getting super buried and overwhelmed with their inbox and haven't set those boundaries. So it's kind of feels counterintuitive sometimes because I as a like, very servant hearted, empathetic business owner can feel like my boundaries are going to encroach on my client experience. But as we talked about, I've actually found that the better I am at setting my boundaries, and the better I listen to my own internal cues, and realize what I'm burning out and work around it and learn how to like, create that margin in my day that I ended up showing up so much better, and my clients are happier. And I actually, their experience of me is that I'm extremely timely, and super organized and fly through projects, just because those processes have kind of set up set us up for success.



    Linsi Brownson 36:47

    I agree with that. And I love it so much. And I think that my listeners are sure are going to love hearing this because most of them want a business like that as well and are in the process of or even have a business like that, and have experienced the same thing as you have kind of feeling that sense of shame, where it's like, well, are they supposed to be more entrepreneurial should may have more ambition or be trying to grow the time. And so I just think you've always been such a great example of, of what that really looks and feels like, as a business owner. And also, as a client, I feel really honored to be on both sides of this with you.



    Linsi Brownson 37:25

    But yeah, I really love that I have some pretty powerful takeaways from this conversation that I'm excited to kind of recap, I'll do that in the outro of this. But I thank you so much for sharing all of those pieces, because I do really think that your story and your way of approaching this is different. It's unique. It's it really resonates with a lot of small business owners. And I love that you've continued to be super committed to being a service provider and continually saying, you know, I want to have this one on one relationship with people and really be hands on involved in small business owners experiences of growing a business. And that is really admirable, as well. So thank you for sharing that. Thank you for coming on. Tell us how people can connect with you if they want to do some work on their WordPress sites. Yeah, so I have my website, obviously. And I actually just relaunched it again. So that one is Ember and.co, you'll probably I don't know if you'll spell it out in the show notes. And then that's, that's the same one for a lot of my social accounts. So it's the same on Instagram On Facebook. And then I'm under my full name on LinkedIn. Caitlyn, Shannon. And that's where I tend to hang out the most. Thank you so much. Yes, I will link everything so people can connect with you online. And once again, Caitlin, thank you so much. This is such a great conversation.



    Caitlin 38:54

    Of course. Thank you. It's been so fun.



    Linsi Brownson 38:57

    Alright, I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Caitlin I know I definitely did. And it doesn't matter if it's a 10 minute or 15 minute conversation with Caitlin, it always turns into 45. I just love talking shop with her. And so I did want to jump in with kind of a recap of the five takeaways because we talked about a lot of different things. But there were really five core elements that stood out to me, so I wanted to share those with you. Hopefully these will be helpful takeaways for you as well.



    Number one is her decision to stay small. This is something I've always applauded her for, because I know how challenging it has been for me. And for many of the business owners I talk with to admit to yourself that you want to stay small. And I think again, this is the messaging that we get in the world about what business is supposed to look like what we should or shouldn't be doing that growth is the most important thing. And I really do think that there is a sense of shame that comes along with not wanting to work all the time or not. Wanting to make a million dollars in your business, because these are the numbers, six figures, seven figures, eight figures, they're so consistently pumped into our heads that it really starts to seem like anything outside of that is not right. And so I love when someone like Caitlyn is willing to say, you know what, that's not the business that I want, I feel really good about the size by business is. And so if this is something that you've been kind of grappling with, if it resonates with you, I want you to really give yourself permission to love your business at the size it is, whatever size it is, and just stay with that. And be happy with that until you feel like you have a new sense of growth or a new desire and whatever that means for you. So number one takeaway is that it is absolutely okay to stay small, if that feels good to you.



    Number two is about setting those boundaries, she gives some really good tips for how she's set boundaries in her business. And a boundary is something that you create with yourself. First and foremost, you've got to learn how to honor your own boundaries before you can ever start expecting other people to honor them. So for Caitlin, you know, one example is logging off at the end of the day, there's a certain time of day where she knows she's not going to be as productive anymore, or she won't be working at her best. And so creating that boundary for herself. And then using the tool of the inbox pasir like we talked about, so that she just removes that temptation. So we want always make sure that we're creating the mindset and the habits that we want to create in our lives. And then the tools and the platforms that are available to us are there to help us support that. So she removed the temptation, and then was able to further develop that habit of logging off at a certain time of the day. Also for her knowing that vacations are important and to really be able to log off than to write and not do any client work. That's something that she's figured out for herself, and then starting to put that into place by talking it through with her clients. So the important thing is to learn how to stop yourself from overworking in order to give your clients the best experience that you can and to make sure that you aren't burning yourself out or becoming unreliable, because all of the stacked up tasks and to dues and the stress that you've got going on behind the scenes when you don't have boundaries in place. So we're going to stop saying yes to everything are just reacting to everything going on around us and create the boundaries for ourselves, and then start to share those with our clients and the people in our lives so that they know how to respect our time as much as we do. on the same topic of boundaries. She had a couple other examples of things she does as well that I think are great. One of them is that she has specific client workdays. So this is something I do as well. And for pretty much all service providers, certainly all the clients I have, I have found that this is really helpful to have certain days of your week, where you don't see clients. So that all you've got to do in those days is either creative work or admin work or anything that doesn't require makeup, having to put on clothes, or any of the things where you feel like you have to be on in a certain way. So to keep those two things separate, it's not that they have to be done on separate days. But I do like having built in days into your schedule where you are seeing clients and then other days that you're not something else that she's implemented that works really well for her is having her working hours or her client availability posted in her email signature. That's been helpful, again, to set those expectations ahead of time, and then creating timelines for the projects that she's working on. So as she had mentioned, she's learned how to package her services. This is something I've talked about in the podcast before, I'm a fan of this as well. So instead of offering miscellaneous services or hourly services, really creating clear specific deliverables within a package setting makes it very easy then for you to put timelines to each of those deliverables or to understand the process from start to finish on your end and on your clients. And which then lets you build a whole timeline around it. It is harder, it's not impossible, but it is harder to create timelines for unpackaged services. So I love that she's been able to implement that. And like I said, her timeline is graphic, it's very easy to understand, it's kind of fun to read and to get these are all things that I'm a huge proponent of because anything we can do to make our jobs more fun and to make our client experience a little more playful. I think that's always gonna win. That's a great way to do it.



    Takeaway number 3 is all about easing your clients anxiety. That is kind of our role as service providers. If it was just about delivering the final product, then there's in most cases, okay, all cases, your clients can go a whole lot of places to get the same end product as you that's just the truth of the matter, right. If you're a personal chef, people can go to restaurants to get the end product, they can go to Step kitchen, they can order online meal kits. But what they can't get is the ability to work with you to customize a plan that they're excited about to have food in their fridge, they are actually looking forward to eating at the end of the day, all the stuff that meets their dietary restrictions and more, and someone who's really going to take them through the process, they know that no matter what, on Tuesday nights, they're going to have fresh meals delivered to their house that they're super excited about. That is what you're selling, you're not just selling delicious food. If you were then it would be really hard to compete, because there's lots of great options out there. The same is true for logo design. The same is true for coaching, right? You don't need me in your business, holding your hand making every single decision every day. But as your coach, I'm able to help you navigate through the sticky moments when you do need someone or help you think outside of a situation that you feel really attached and connected to, or to make something that would be painful and terrible on your own a whole lot more fun. This is all about giving peace of mind when you provide a service, you give somebody the peace of mind that they don't have to go through this alone, that they're going to have somebody who knows their way through this, who can guide you and help you. And you know, and be there for you in a way that they don't want to do just on their own. So anything that you do to set boundaries with your clients to create expectations up front during onboarding or any of the processes that you put in place to be a better communicator with your client from start to finish, that is going to ease their anxiety and make it so much easier for you to be that reliable, responsive service provider that I know you all want to be. And I also know can be such a challenge sometimes as a creative takeaway.



    Number four is all about knowing your limits and your creative capacity. And being okay with that, right. So scheduling your time around what is feasible, what is realistic for you in terms of your creative and your energetic output, and what you need to accomplish. So the more realistic you are about how you operate, the easier it's going to be for you to set a schedule and follow your schedule. If we're constantly trying to build a business based on an eight hour workday, like Caitlin said, and this employee mindset, then you're going to constantly be falling short, constantly be behind, under delivering over promising all of the stuff that we talked about. And so it's really about coming back to what is true for me, how much do I have to give on any certain day, I again, have found that if you are booking clients on certain days, and leaving specific days just for creative work, for me, personally, my creative capacity has increased quite a bit, versus trying to have a few hours of creative time mixed in with what client worked for me is also creative time. But really understanding that capacity and how much output it takes for you to do the work that you do and what you need in order to recover, creating that whole system of balance for yourself. And then honoring that day after day in your schedule, that is going to be a huge game changer for you. If you're currently not doing it, I really think that it's the key to the do less accomplish more methodology. So know your limits, be okay with them don't strive to work like somebody else does, because they are not you, you are not them. And really knock all of the nonsense out of your brain that makes you think you are any less of an entrepreneur, if you are taking care of yourself serving your clients living the lifestyle you want and enjoying the work that you do, you are doing it right. So we can ease off some of the sheds here and really just lean into what works for you in the business that you actually want to have the life you actually want to live. And



    takeaway number five is to be the example for your clients. So this is the ultimate client attraction marketing. And so I know I said when I was talking to her, I love the example she gave her client painting this beautiful picture of being in a boat, right? That is truly what every one of us should be striving to create for our clients is a client experience, where we are someone who they want to have in their life, where we're showing up the way that they want to show up in their business or their life, whatever it is that you're providing services for, you want to be the example of what is possible for them. And the more that you show up in that way and honor those boundaries and you are true and honest with yourself and with them, the more they feel like they have the permission to be true and honest with themselves and to show up the way that they want to in the world. I promise you that whatever you want to have as your Business lifestyle, the more you start living that lifestyle authentically, the more you will naturally be attracting clients who want the same thing. And that is part of this big picture that you're selling. So it becomes this very organic process, and you are aligned with the clients that you have, they're always going to be your ideal clients, because they respect you from the get go because you have something you show up in a way that is meaningful to them. And they're looking for guidance to help them do more and more of that for themselves. So that is takeaway number five to really be the example for your clients of who you want to be, because that's who they want to be as well.



    Linsi Brownson 50:37

    Alright, thank you again, so much for tuning in. I hope that this conversation and my recap here has been helpful for you have a fabulous week, you guys I will talk to you soon. Do you love these weekly doses of insight and inspiration for your business? Then you got to join me in the maverick HQ. This is our listener library full of helpful tools to create clarity, spark creativity, and manage your time and energy like a boss. It's all inside the maverick HQ and it's totally free for you head to LinsiBrownson.com/Maverick to join me right now. I'll see you inside.

    Linsi Brownson
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