81: Take a Mental Break with Jacq Fisch.
On today’s episode, I am joined by a special guest, Jacq Fisch. I interviewed Jacq over a year ago on the podcast and we are re-airing that conversation today. Jacq is a professional copywriter and helps business owners become better writers and make the writing process a whole lot easier. She has an online membership called Write Like a MOFO. She also has her own book, Unfussy Life: An Intuitive Approach to Navigating Change - available now! - all about her life of fast pivots and learning to really trust herself.
When I originally had her on the show we talked about taking mental breaks; Finding ways to create space in our lives, not only for our health and happiness but also as an essential part of creativity. She shares her tips to get out of your head.
I decided to re-air this episode because this topic has been on my mind a lot since I have dealt with a lot of headiness lately. I need to get out of my own head. So here we go.
In This Episode:
[03:16] One of the ways Linsi works through her mental stuff is by getting her thoughts on paper. This brain dump is a regular practice for her.
[05:07] She recommends starting by downloading all your thoughts on paper and really understanding what is going on inside your head if you are feeling anxious or overwhelmed. Then you have the ability to process your emotions and allow them and you can take some space and start to let things go.
[07:06] The scattered and looping thoughts are two indicators for her that what she needs is to intentionally step back, slow things down, get out of her head, and do less. This is so hard to do.
[07:32] She decided to re-air her conversation with Jacq because she knows she is not alone in mental overload right now.
[09:31] Unfussy writing is simple, easy to understand language, and that our clients and people understand. Unfussy is an approach to writing and business that feels easy, fun, and light.
[10:46] The number one thing if you want to sound clearer in your writing is to write like you speak, then edit out unneeded words.
[11:56] Unfussy writing is simply getting words down on a page which can be a struggle for many people. The editing is where the magic happens.
[14:59] The first thing that Jacq does with all her clients is non-negotiable customer avatar work.
[17:18] The clearer you are on who you want to work with the clearer you can be in your writing.
[18:42] Even if you’re not sure who your people are exactly, guess and you can go back and change it later if you need to.
[19:31] Jacq shares about her Write Like a MOFO Community.
[22:41] You can join the MOFO Community by applying on her website or being invited by a current member.
[25:01] Many members are able to get their writing for the week completed in the weekly MOFO sessions and don’t have to do any writing outside of the sessions.
[27:37] If you are starting on your website from nothing she suggests starting with your sales or work with me page. Most of that page should be focused on what your client wants and their struggles.
[28:07] Jacq suggests working on your about page next because we buy from people and we want to know, like, and trust them before we buy. She recommends doing the home page last.
[30:14] The job of your home page is to let whoever is landing on your website know that is the right place for them, what they will find there, and who you are.
[31:48] The best way for her to rediscover her MOJO is to do nothing without a purpose.
[33:26] Jacq likes to start the day on the right foot and then take breaks throughout the day. The key is really doing nothing to give her brain a break.
[36:29] She discovered early in her business that doing forty hours of deep creative work wasn’t going to work for her. Our brains can only handle between 4-6 hours of deep work a day and then we are no longer effective.
[40:14] Jacq’s go-to brain breaks are painting, listening to audiobooks, and watching sports.
[43:11] Moving our bodies is an important part of a brain break as well.
[44:06] If it isn’t fun or doesn’t feel good then it is time for a break or to reevaluate the work you are doing.
Connect with Jacq:
Read the book Unfussy Life: An Intuitive Approach to Navigating Change.
Connect with Linsi:
Transcript
You are listening to Be Brilliant in your Business, the podcast for busy business owners to take charge of your time and energy to create meaning and momentum in your life. I'm your host, Linsi Brownson, certified coach and seasoned entrepreneur, and I know what it takes to run a thriving small business that works for your life. Join me for an honest look into the minds of small business owners as I share with you stories, coaching and solutions to the biggest problems that keep people from realizing their dreams.
Before we dive into today's episode, I want to welcome new listeners. I'm so glad you're here and I look forward to being part of your brilliant business. Be sure to hit the subscribe button because we've got new episodes for you each week. Are you ready? Let's go.
Hey Mavericks. Welcome to the show. Today I have a special guest Her name is jack fish. And full disclosure. I interviewed jack over a year ago on the podcast and we are re airing that conversation today. And I'm going to talk about why in just a moment. So jack is a writer, she's a professional copywriter, she helps business owners become better writers and make the writing process a whole lot easier. It's called unfussy writing. That's what she's all about. She has an online membership called write like a mofo. And she's also an author herself. She has a book coming out in early 2021, probably January. And she says that it's two part memoir, one part self development. It's all about her life of fast pivots, and learning to really trust herself. She calls it the permission that you've been waiting for to do the things you want, and to quit the things you don't. The book is called unfussy life, and you should definitely check that out. Make sure that you connect with jack, you can find her at Jacqueline fisch.com. Or I like to find her on Instagram, she's at jacq, that's jACQ underscore, fisch. But the easiest way to do it is just to search mofo mo fo on Instagram, which I love. So naturally, jack knows a few things about being creative, and finding the balance between the process of writing and achieving things and the flow of creativity.
So when I had her on the show, originally, we talked about taking mental breaks, finding ways to create space in our lives, not only for our health and our happiness, but also as an essential part of creativity. And she shared some of her tips what she does to get out of her head, we had a great conversation. And it's one that has been on my mind recently, because I've been experiencing a lot of well, headedness lately, I need to get out of my head. So one of the ways that I work through my mental stuff, as I've mentioned in the last few episodes of the show, in particular, is by getting my thoughts on paper, I like to brain dump all of my thoughts, we call it a thought download. And I think about this as like I'm ringing out my brain like a sponge.
This is a regular practice that I do. And it's something that I highly recommend that you do as well, I shared exactly how to do that in the last episode, I think I also shared the step by step in the overworking and under working episode as well. So that is a practice that I do, it's my go to when I'm experiencing any kind of anxiety, mind racing, overwhelm. And often once I do that, I can start to really slow things down and create that mental space. And I have the ability then to think more intentionally. And so usually, this is what I recommend as our first step, as opposed to something like meditation or going for a walk, or working out or listening to a podcast or a book or something. And like all the things that we do to try to give ourselves breaks.
I like to start by doing this thought download. Because when we're anxious and we step away from it and go and do something else, we're often just delaying dealing with it. So we're not really processing the cause of the anxiety are the cause of the mind racing. So we can take a break and step away from things and maybe get a sense of relief in that moment. But it's just going to come right back with the same Or sometimes even more intensity later on.
So I recommend starting by downloading all your thoughts on paper and really understanding what's going on inside your head. And then you have that ability to process your emotions and allow them. And you can take some space and start to really let things go and do some of those other activities. So that's my general way of doing this. But recently, I've noticed a couple of things. Number one, when I do my thought downloads, my thoughts are all over the place, which is not uncommon, we have lots of things going on in our world. And we're always kind of bouncing around from one topic to another. But for me, I usually have one or two, or maybe three things that are top of mind for me. And my thoughts are sort of categorically focused on those things. And lately, it's been like 10 things, and every other thought is bouncing to a different topic. So it makes a lot of sense as to why I've been feeling scattered lately why I've been feeling anxious lately, because truly, my thoughts are all over the place.
And the second thing that I've noticed is that my brain keeps looping on the same thoughts in this really rapid succession. It's kind of like a skipping record, where you can't make it to the end of the song, because it just keeps getting stuck in that same pattern. So a lot of times a thought download really helps because as soon as I see my thoughts on paper, i a lot of them, I can just recognize and acknowledge them and simply let them go. So it really does feel like that cathartic, like it's got somewhere to be now I can empty my brain and move on. But when my thoughts are looping like that, it never feels finished. It never feels complete, my brain never feels empty, because it just keeps resurfacing, those same things over and over again. hope that makes sense. So these two things, the scattered many, many thoughts. And the looping thoughts are two indicators for me that what I need right now is to intentionally step back and slow things down and get out of my head and do less. I know, right? This is so hard to do.
Which brings me back to my conversation with Jacq. So I decided to re air this conversation with her because I know that I'm not alone in this mental overload right now. And there's one thing in particular that she talks about, and well, you just got to hear it. So let's tune in to this timeless conversation with Jacq Fisch.
Hello, how are you?
I am doing so well. Thank you so much for coming. And joining me here. I'm really, really excited to chat with you. And
me too. I'm excited.
Awesome. So if you wouldn't mind start us off by telling us what it is that you do over at jackfish. And we have so much to talk about within that. But let's start there.
We do. So, in a quick note, I'm a writer. So what that means I help to pick two kinds of people either do copywriting for other business owners. And so that's usually their website stuff, emails, launches, course copy, all that kind of good stuff. And then the other side is I help business owners become better writers, and I coach them with their writing. They're probably pretty good writers already and they want to become better and they have a lot of writing to do. So I help them, get it done and get it done well so they can get it up there on their website or whatever they need to do with it.
Fantastic. And I love one of the words that you like to use is unfussy writing. Can you tell us about what that means?
Oh yes, unfussy is my favorite word and I think it applies more to just writing but to life. But as applies to writing. So quick definition, and this is by no means an official definition of unfussy because not sure there actually is one. Fuzzy writing is full of jargon and stuff that people don't understand. big fancy words that some people use because they think it makes them sound smart when really it just confuses people. So unfussy writing is the opposite of that. It's simple, easy to understand language that your clients understand your people understand, and that if you've been in writing fussy language for a while, it takes a little bit of maybe force to break that habit. I just start writing like an unfussy person and more than just the actual words use unfussy is also an approach. It's an approach to writing and doing business. That feels easy and fun and white. Because if it's not fun, what are we doing? What is the point? So true?
Yes, we've, we're talking about copywriting. But really that's just a metaphor for life and business. What are we doing here? Right? Yeah, I love it. It's such a huge weight off of your shoulders to begin to just write like one of the things that I learned early in my, my writing experience, too, and finding my voice was to write like I speak, which is a natural tendency of mine. But really, I mean, I think that's what we're talking about here. Right? So we're having conversational language and the way that we're writing and speaking to our clients and potential clients,
yes, absolutely. I think that's probably you hit you hit it on the head. The number one thing if you want to, to sound clear in your writing is to write like you speak with a caveat of knowing that when we speak, we often add in more words than we need. So right, like you speak, and then
we there's always, always always editing. So
Oh, my goodness, that is, I wonder if that is the actual harder thing, the harder piece to learn. So you can kind of transition people from fussy writing into unfussy writing as a style, and they're like, okay, yep, I get that. But then to really be able to edit down and to understand how you're putting things together, how you're describing it in a way that other people are going to understand. I am very verbose as we have, as we've figured out, I've learned even more since I've started this podcast, but I like to talk things around in circles, because I think I process like I think in processes, as I'm saying it, and so it's challenging for me sometimes as a writer, to then be able to like, come back to Alright, what is the point that I'm trying to make? And what's the purpose of this? Oh,
yeah, that's a really good point. And, and I agree, there's definitely two approaches. So the unfussy writing, is simply getting words down on a page, which for some people is a struggle, even getting to the page, getting one word on the page, and then there's the editing, which is another beast all on its own. But I think editing is where, where the magic happens. That's where you take a bunch of words that are rough, and turn them into something that means something.
Yeah, totally. So I'm curious, do you find that because you're primarily working with small business owners actually tell me who your clientele are? Who's your? Yeah,
so they range a little bit from solo entrepreneurs, they're often created to have some kind of a creative business. And I also do some work for some small corporate businesses as well. The one thing they all have in common is that they're all they're mostly service based businesses. So I do write for a few products. And they mostly are trying to leave the world a better place. So they're doing something with their expertise, with their knowledge with their coaching, training, that wants to improve people, or a situation, or wives in some way. And they do that in a couple in a very variety of different ways. So some,
oh, yeah, your people are my people. I love God that and I really, I always have that challenge, too, because I'm like, I don't want to put people in a box. But there always are these common threads and what you said, having that, I mean, I use the term mission or purpose a lot. But yeah, having that desire to really influence and help and impact the world in some way. And sometimes that's just by making somebody's life easier. But I also think that a lot of us have this sort of big overarching idea where we're like, I want to leave this place better than when I got here.
Yeah, exactly.
So do you find with your clientele done that do people often come to you initially wanting you saying, like, hey, I need you to write this stuff for me. And then over time, they sort of like feel out and you kind of help them flush out what their voices and their message and get them to a place where they're excited to learn? Or are these distinctly two different kinds of people? And
that's a good question. I think when people first come to me for help, sometimes they're stuck and aren't totally sure what their voice is or what they even want to say, or how they want to say it. And so something that happens naturally in the online world, especially with newer business owners, and new not necessarily like they're new, like fresh out of college, perhaps they had a corporate job, and they're leaving that. And now they're trying to write in this online world, and they don't know how to like what kind of a voice to present. Like, who am I? What do I stand for? What do I want to represent? And especially if they've came from another corporate or business environment, and they've just spent many years learning to write like someone else, and like someone told them to or from the education space.
The writing academically is very different from writing online. So the first thing we do with all my clients, it's non negotiable. We are going to die. into customer avatar work. And sometimes it makes people like gag a little bit like to do it. And you need to not just because it's a helpful exercise, and I don't do customer avatar work from like, the standpoint of my clients name is Jen and she has brown hair, and she likes vanilla soy latte. It's not that it's what keeps them up at night. What are they complaining about? What do they really secretly want? And what frustrates them? What kind of trends are happening, that kind of stuff. And that's a prerequisite to doing any writing, not just to help the business owner, because that's definitely, definitely a huge benefit. But also for me to understand who we're writing for, like, Who is this person? Yeah, very usually, clients come to me with some of that. And maybe they've thought about it, not very often. And even less, so it's written down. Right? So we write it down, and then take that, that research and share it with anyone else who's going to provide any kind of service for them.
So branding, design, all essential things to have in your business, they can take that stuff and provide it to another service provider, and they can use that in their work to
that is a goldmine of information. And it's interesting that you say they don't usually no, I see, I definitely see the not writing it down. I think that's and I'm kind of thinking of my inexperience in this too, is like, if when you get me talking about who my people are, I could give you a whole, like I could talk for an hour about exactly who they are, what their problems are the experiences that they've had. And when I sit down to write it down, then I'm like, I don't know, I've never met this person before in my life, it all goes out the window.
Exactly. So just by talking about it, you'll. And once you get that momentum going, even if you're just doing journaling about who your people are the people you love to work with, it wakes up some new things. And sometimes when business owners see that all laid out in front of them, they're like, Oh, no, wait, I really want to work with this person, not this person, right, it helps them get clear. And the clear they are on who they want to work with, or who their product is for the clear we can be in our writing, which makes everything so much easier.
It really does. And in this is one of those areas to where it's like, it seems like it, it takes a certain amount of trial and error effort thinking just really digging into it. And sometimes it does take you a while to get to that. And once you have that nailed that does open up all the doors, because now you know exactly who you're talking to. And you know, back to unfussy like now you can speak to that person in particular. And I think so often part of what happens in fussy writing is that you go really broad, so things are very general. And you make a lot of assumptions. And I think that's, again, I'm sort of right now of I think I'm in this space right now where I'm doing a lot of writing and really thinking about this. So I'm very Me, me focus on like, happening in my world. But yeah, when you don't know exactly who this one particular person is, you're speaking to everyone, right. And so it really doesn't land for people, because you have to make assumptions at that point versus really knowing having that level of clarity. And knowing who that person is really helps you talk to them in a way that it's like the two of you are sitting in a room or you're sitting at a coffee shop together. And that does make all the difference for people, especially on the internet, where we're not getting that face to face contact.
Yeah, exactly. And even if you're not sure who your people are, exactly, guess, and then you can go back and change it to Yeah, always know that if you pick a customer avatar, a certain type of person you want to work with, you can change it if you don't have to stay married.
Yes, number one roadblock for entrepreneurs, or I should say big roadblock for entrepreneurs is that idea that like, oh, I've got to figure this out before I can take action before I can try it. And no, it's the opposite. start somewhere, build it out. See what happens.
Yeah, totally
love it. Okay, so you do a lot of writing and work with people and help them kind of build that out in their business. And then you also do the coaching and the training. Tell us about what that experience is like and who comes to that who really benefits from it.
Yeah, so this is a little bit different. It's called write like a mofo because that's what we do. We write like, no posts. So in in this little community I've created it is by application or invitation only. So it only opens a couple times a year. And there are a couple things we doing there. We do three main things. The first thing is writing marathons. So a writing marathon is three focused hours. There's probably 10 business owners on a zoom call. They write. So we do some warm up exercises to warm up our writing muscles, dig into writing. Usually people come with a project in mind, but sometimes they throw whatever they want to work and work on out the window and do something else. It's all about like inspiration in the moment. And then we do live feedback. So when someone's ready for some feedback, say they're in the group working on a sales page, awesome, we'll pull up their sales page copy, which they have a dedicated document ready to go, I pull it up, and we workshop it together live on the call. So the other business owners all get to learn from each other, and learn about things that they didn't even necessarily were ready to learn yet. But they have that future knowledge when they're going to start working on a sales page.
Yeah, oh, I love that. I think it's so valuable for us, I'm seeing more of this come out. And things that I'm working on, too, is that that workshop aspect, so really giving people rather than having a webinar or giving somebody a self guided course, which those things have their place, but this experience to really work your way through something and working on it with all these people around you. So it's like you get your quiet time. And then you get your group time together. And that's really powerful.
Absolutely. And it goes often way beyond just words on a page, it usually goes into strategy. So someone's writing a blog post, like, Okay, great. How are you going to promote this blog post? Oh, you could, you actually have like seven social media posts in here. So we get into the strategy too. So it's like a whole other a whole other bs? Yeah, the two other things we do in there, we do co writing sessions. So no feedback, just two hours of focus, writing time. But there's something kind of magical about when you see other faces, on a video call, and everyone's working, you're not going to goof off and go check Facebook, or Instagram, you're going to sit down and do your work. And then we also do workshops. So perhaps whatever the members need at that time, like we're doing a content plan, here's how to create a content plan for the year, how to come up with great titles, how to promote it year round, and things like that to
love it. That is so cool. Okay, so this group is is that for 10 people? Or is it just 10 people per marathon,
usually 10 people per marathon, although everyone is invited, so the group is intentionally, quite small. So there's roughly 20 to 30 people in there at the moment, and it's not going to grow that big beyond there for the foreseeable future. Because I like it really small and the members like it's small, we all know each other. It's really great. Which is why the only way to get in is to apply or to, to know someone who's already in there. Awesome.
Yeah, I love that. And I love hearing you say that too, because I what a lot of what's come up in conversations recently has been about this idea that we're supposed to be growing our businesses and scaling and going, you know, taking it to a certain level that is seen as like the successful place to be. And so I love having conversations when the example is like Well, no, I actually want something small. That doesn't mean that you're not benefiting a whole bunch of people in a really meaningful way. But to intentionally keep something small. And so what you're saying with, you know, wanting your community to really be engaged with one another, not just know who they are. But to really understand each other. I think that's so powerful for entrepreneurs, again, as we're talking about, all this time that we spend alone, and in our heads, exactly this group, we need places that we can turn and say this person is really going to understand me and my business.
Yeah, totally having that having that community is so important. I mean, so yes, the group will grow to 30 people or so maybe, maybe 50. And then I'll pause. And everyone is invited to join those writing marathons. And then they limit one of those marathons a month to getting focused feedback. So it's not for it's never 50 people on a call. I'll try to get feedback at once, because that would just be crazy.
I'd be there quite a while.
Yeah, it would. That would be a marathon indeed. But we get a lot of writing done like people crank out three and four blog posts and four hours and then if you blog weekly, that's that's a month's worth of content.
Totally. Yeah. I love that. I think that's that is really impressive to sit down and have the focus time. And because it feels so good to you walk away from a few hours. I mean, we all know what it's like to have just this like Rockstar productive day. Yeah, feel amazing. You feel like you're never gonna have a bad day again, which that's not how it works. But you know, you feel so good about getting something like this done especially in an area like writing that can be such a challenge for people.
Yeah, totally. And when you don't know when to start, and and even Some people don't do writing outside of the write like a mofo sessions at all. They only do their writing during write like a mofo time. Other time is business time or what? I love
that that's like batching at its finest. Yeah, that's great. Great. So you said something earlier that reminded me, we were actually talking about you the other day in my mastermind. And I think it was Stephanie Claremont who said, she works with you on developing her copy and writing the sales page. And then Shannon Schaefer, to develop everything out. And she said, something, I'm kind of, like forgetting the details of this, about the, the process, like the order of things, and you mentioned something at the top of our call about getting helping people get really clear on the like, who their person is first and what the the purpose of everything is, and then to be able to take that and send it out to all the other people. And I think that's what Stephanie was saying, too, is like, there, it's kind of reverse of what we often think, is we're like, oh, I'm going to build, I'm going to design my webpage. And then I'm going to build the webpage. And I'm going to plug the copy into it. And that actually does a lot more good when you flip that around. So can you talk at all about like, Where Where does the process of copywriting come into these bigger projects, like a website or a marketing launch? or things like that? Oh, this is such a good question.
Some, yes, some business owners sometimes think it's either or, like, if they have the budget for a copywriter, or they have the budget for a website designer, or branding, and they choose one or the other. And it's not a great choice to make. So that's the best way to go about it. If you can totally, totally recommend this is doing both at the same time. Because if I'm writing so for example, if someone's like, I need new homepage, copy. Okay, that's great. How long is your homepage? What does it look like? And if I don't know that, it's hard to write for it, I don't know how much copy to put, I don't know, where images are going to go. And if we can do that, and if I can do that in tandem with a developer, and a designer, and we can talk about it together and talk about who we're appealing to. And it makes it so much easier, like that collaboration. And you don't necessarily need to hire someone who does all of it.
But the environment, what are the most important things is that homepage sales page, what matters,
I like to so depends on if you're having someone else write it for you, or if you're doing it yourself. So if you are starting with your website, from nothing, I suggest was starting where the dollars come in. And so that's your sales page, or work with a page, whatever that is. And in doing that, because your sales page is 98% focused on your clients, actual words they use and their struggles and what they say they want, you're going to get all that client language in there. And practically speaking, you have a way to make money on your website. So that page is done. And then the next page I recommend going to is your about page. Because after people read your offer, or see what you're selling, whether you're selling a course a product, whatever, who's selling me this thing, who are they, I want to know this person, because we buy from people, and we want to know like and trust the people we buy from.
So your about page is the next page I recommend. I don't The only reason I say it depends on if you're writing it for yourself or not. Because if I'm writing for someone else, I want to get to know them first. So if I'm writing website copy for another business owner, I start with their about page so I can get to know them. And then I go to the sales page. That's like an inside scoop. And then either way, I always recommend doing the homepage last, because you will have so much good stuff from your sales page and your about page and that you'll pretty much have the copy already. where some people are like, I'm gonna start from the beginning and start with the homepage. And then you're like, I don't know what to write. I don't know what to say. You can take what you have in your sales page and about page and tweak it a little bit, even reuse some of the great statements in there. Because there's nothing wrong with having this a similar sentence. across your website, it shows that you're consistent. And as much as I would wish at as much as we all wish but people do not read every single word on our website, even if we've spent a lot of time on them.
Yes. Very, very good point. And so yeah, I will totally admit in my life as a web designer and building out people's brands and websites. I always felt like the homepage was so important because it's the landing page right. So this is a very different approach and it makes perfect sense to me. I wish that I would have known that Back in the day,
well, your homepage is still important too. And if you don't have one, you could use a sales page as a homepage. Totally, totally fine. Yeah, pages job is to let your whoever's landing on your website know, this is the right place for you. This is what you'll find here. This is who I am.
Yeah, absolutely. But it makes perfect sense to start with your services page or your sales page. Because that's the place where you really are going to dig into the the experience somebody's going to have with you. And once you have that nailed to, like, tease out the pieces, because again, we're at we're busy. So our main goal is like, how much can I accomplish in this tiny amount of time that I actually have to to build something to create a project. And so I think that that kind of efficiency, and being really intentional with how you're spending your your resources, whether that's your time, your money, whatever, and like really focusing on what's going to make the impact for people. I think that's a really great order. Solid info, Jacq. Thank you.
Yeah, you're welcome.
Awesome. Yeah. So I'm excited to hear you've been doing this for a while. And I love talking this whole season, we're talking about keeping up our Mojo or keeping momentum in our business. And so I would love to hear from you what is something that you do to maintain your own Mojo and level of creativity? And tell us about how you figured that out?
Good question. Yeah, it's the Mojo thing, because I have to create, like, I'm creating on demand, I have to be creative in my business and for other people. And I can only do that so much. So yeah, I've learned my the best way for me to rediscover my mojo is to do nothing. Like nothing nothing. Which, which, which is very hard for a Type A overachiever, go, go, go do all of the things type of person. So salutely
Yeah, it's a skill that you have to hone as much as any other skill, right?
Yeah. And it's really uncomfortable. Doing nothing. It is not easy. And I definitely have to force myself to stop sometimes and be like, no, it is not time to work, or do anything.
Totally. Okay. So how do you do it?
I just stop. I say this is like the unfair, fanciest unfussy advice ever, though doing nothing might look like to me. So even if, because I'm a writer. And sometimes I like to turn away from the screen, I'll do lots of journaling and stuff like that. And it's, it's doing nothing with without a purpose either, like, I'm not doing nothing so that I can do more work. I'm doing nothing, because that's what my brain and my body is, like, screaming at me for sometimes, like, you know, when you're just staring at your screen so long, and you're kind of glazing over and not being productive,
never had that no, right? brain 100%.
That means it's time for a break and editing. I tried to do that in the beginning of the day. So that means waking up with my phone in airplane mode, and doing nothing, sometimes meditating not nearly as often as I would like, but that's how it goes. And then even just breaks throughout the day. just laying down staring at the ceiling, looking out the window, doing nothing, not trying to think through a problem, or trying to come to an answer or brainstorm something. But intentionally just letting your mind wander. And sometimes music can help with that. Not necessarily listening to it, to get the lyrics or anything, just to have a distraction to switch your brain. switch gears.
Yeah. So since you're all about unfussy I think I know the answer to this, but do you have any sort of a framework around this? Or do you set alarms for yourself? Or like how do you know when it's time? Or are you just going off of feeling like recognizing in yourself when you need to step back? Yeah, I'm not that rigid about
it. Because I think that might defeat the purpose. It's definitely, definitely listening to myself. And I do track the way I spend my time. So I track like, everything I do in my business, whether it's writing a blog post, having a conversation with you, I'm tracking that time. And I know from past data, that if I spend 20 to more than 30 hours a week working, I usually shoot for 20 to 30 more than 30 I'm becoming ineffective, and I'm starting to get grumpy So it's usually a trigger, or if I feel that coming on that frantic Oh my God, my to do list is so big today. That means I need to take a break more than ever.
Yeah, totally Yes. So it is interesting because I'm thinking about all of my clients as well who are primarily in creative spaces. So like you said, You've got to be creative for your clients, and then you've got to be creative for yourself. And then you've got to replenish all of your creative energy, all of your creative reserves, so that you can keep doing that work. So that's, I think that's going to be really applicable to pretty much everybody who would listen to this podcast. So yeah, that's awesome. And yeah, okay, so 20 to 30 hours is kind of the sweet spot that you found, did you it was trial and error? Have you burned yourself out before? Like, what was the process before you came to this realization where you're like, Okay, I genuinely am going to make sure that I create space for myself to get back my energy.
Yeah, so I spent 13 years in the corporate world working 40 to 50 hours a week plus commuting time. And so I'm, I've been in business full time, a little over two years, at the time I was conversation, and I just assumed that I would go from working 40 hours in corporate to doing 40 hours in business for myself, is not true. I discovered it within the first week, that I was like, 40 hours doing this deep creative work is not gonna work. Because in corporate and or any other job, you're in meetings, you're walking around, you're talking to people, you're not doing heads down, focused, deep work. And so I learned that very quickly, and also read this in a book by Cal Newport called Deep work, our brains can only handle between four to six hours of deep work a day. So beyond that, it's wasted time, and I'm not being effective for anyone, so four to six hours, that's even more than some of the numbers that I've heard before. Like, I've heard that we'd kind of tap out at three,
but maybe it's three, like consecutive, so definitely not six consecutive hours. Yeah, definitely get up and take breaks and walk around and do stuff. But I think three might be the most that you could potentially stay fitness. Yeah, we've been writing. I mean, even for the three hour writing marathon, we're doing hard work and hard brain work. So we take breaks, I encourage everyone to take a break whenever they need it. And we also take like a brain break halfway through just to disengage. Look at the wall. Theater.
Yes, guided meditations. Yeah. Awesome. That's, I think that's really, I'm, I'm stumbling over this, because I'm like, how cool is it that you figured this out within a week? Because I'm gonna say, it was probably two years for me of consistently like running, hitting a wall and being like, what happened? How did I get here?
Yeah, I also had, like, I have constraints with kids who are seven and 10. Now. So like, they come home from school, and we have stuff to do. So also, having limited hours in my day means that means that it just can't happen. And literally, like, the family wants to eat food or something like that, then right or, yeah, they want your attention. How strange is that? It is interesting, too, because I think that having kids is an element that, I think for a lot of people. So I've seen this with a lot of people, and I don't have this experience myself, I just have my dogs who have their daily, like, we need to eat now and go for a walk. But that is one element where you can really be grateful, I guess, because that's where you know, you have to step out of something. So that gives you the opportunity to be really focused, it makes the time that you're working, that you are focused, all the more important. And it's also the thing where it's like, I don't have another time that this is going to happen. So it has to happen now.
Yeah, that that sense of urgency and focus. Like when it's time to work, it's time to work. And if I'm not feeling it, then that means something's off and I need to go take a walk or do something, get back into into work mode or things are just not going to happen today. And I have to accept that.
Yes, love it. Okay, so you maintain your mojo by doing nothing by taking these breaks that you've gotten really good at figuring out exactly when to like, let your foot off the gas pedal. What are what are some of your favorite things to do? So I know you've mentioned a few staring at the ceiling going for a walk? What is sort of your go to like, let's say your middle of the day it's 3pm you're like okay, I've got two more hours that I'm going to focus on this but I need to take this break. What do you do?
The question I say, I sound so deep or I'm like, Yeah, I just started feeling
a listener. They're like, Wow, she's really smart, huh?
So I, well, I say I would paint. Sometimes I do paintings more of an evening thing for me. And just like fun canvass type stuff. Reading audiobooks, for sure. Because I spend so much time looking at a thing I like to just listen and absorb. Mm hmm. Just sit outside, walk the dogs. I have a son who plays hockey so I spent a lot of time in freezing cold ice rinks. And and it's fun. I enjoy watching sports. And I don't play them. But they're fun to watch. Yes.
Do you wear mittens or gloves? I guess that's what grownups wear gloves.
mittens are actually better because they keep your hands warmer because they keep your fingers together.
I love mittens. That's always my go to but I'm like, I just like to have mitten puppet shows to myself. I'm basically a child.
Put that on the table.
But yeah, hockey rink. We went ice skating a couple months ago, and I was visiting my friends in Minnesota. And I could not believe how cold it was in there, which it's obvious, right? Because they have a giant piece of ice that they have to keep smooth and cold. But it was like shockingly cold to me. And I always I was thinking about it. I always think about the people in the stands who are just sitting there not really moving a whole lot like my whole mo watching any sports. This is a total tangent, but my entire reason for going to a hockey game was always to eat nachos. Right. But that only lasts for like 10 minutes. And then you've got a few hours where you're just sitting there in the freezing cold air condition. And I don't know where I'm going with this.
That means you need like a beer or a wine sweater or something.
Yes. That's all noted.
That's on the list for next time or look for heated stands. Because those those ranks do exist.
Oh, and I didn't know that was a thing. But that makes sense. Yes. Okay, awesome. So you are like, really, we're talking about creating balance in your work schedule and kind of knowing learning your boundaries, knowing your boundaries, and be able being able to pull away from having to do something because it actually sounds like you're doing you're still doing some creative work. Sometimes it's just accessing a different part of your brain and it doesn't have to have an outcome. So the very first thing you said is I, I have the purpose of not having a purpose.
Yeah, exactly. I'm go by.
And I think that's really important too. Because something that comes to mind is like I love listening to audiobooks, but so often, unless it's a novel, unless it's something that's truly just for entertainment, my brain is still processing and trying to solve problems and trying to apply stuff, which can sometimes be really unhelpful. For Yeah, that place.
Yeah, I think getting into my body is also important too. So if I am listening to an audiobook, often that's, well, I'm taking a Bach Mm hmm. Or when I'm making dinner and even making dinner, I'm noticing the food, like it doesn't have to be dramatic. Like, it's like, this is a tomato, like feeling the tomato and just being present with your food, which sounds so very Whoo. But it's a way to just switch that focus from brainwork. To to your body. Yeah.
I love it. This is so valuable. And I think just even as the reminder to us, like we're, we're here to do something really important. But we can only do that for a certain amount of time. We only have so much capacity. And so the best way to do your best work is to pull yourself out of it and not be trying to do your best work all the time, because that's not possible.
Mm hmm. Yeah. And as long as you're having fun, it feels good. Because if it doesn't feel good, then then it's time for a break or it's time to reevaluate the work you're doing. But that's a whole other conversation though.
Gosh, that's right. I kind of skipped right over that fun thing tonight.
Yes. Must Have fun. Right.
Awesome. Well jack thank you so much for coming and sharing. I'm really I love talking with copywriters and people who make really tangible things for businesses. That's it's so interesting to me to learn about your process and how that works. And so I'm excited thank you for sharing about the mofo community. And I know that that will be you'll be opening that back up for applications probably right around the time that we are launching this podcast. So we'll put dates for all of that include that in the show notes as well so people can connect up but let us know how we can connect with you online now and what we can get involved with In the meantime,
awesome. best place to find me is that Jacqueline fish calm and I'm on Most of the socials except twitter twitter feels angry, like a dirty word. But mostly Instagram Facebook, you'll find me there sharing stories sometimes behind the scenes peeks of what's happening inside of a room, right? Like a mofo marathon and some of those other fun creative things. Awesome.
I love it. And yeah, you're you're fun to watch your mofo community is definitely having fun. So that's a key part of this for sure I can see it through what you post is like everybody loves getting together. Like copywriting is not a scary thing. It's really fun and exciting. And you make it a lot easier to tap into that too. So
yes, absolutely. Awesome. Fun plus productive to Yes. essential thing.
Well, I feel like that goes without saying, right, we're
writing.
We're creating something that we're sharing with people. So that's fun and productive. Big deal. Yeah, yeah. Cool. Thank you so much for coming and sharing. And yeah, connect with jack fish online at Jacqueline fish and all the social places. It's super fun to see all that. And we will share all about the mofo right like a mofo community when it comes out again.
Awesome. Thank you so much for
having me. Thank you for coming.
Hey, I know that running a small business can feel complicated. So let me help you uncomplicate it. I teach people how to harness their creative brainpower to take clear and focused action to accomplish their goals without burning out. I offer a free one hour consultation where we uncover what is really getting in your way right now. And I'll show you step by step how to create an aligned business that you will love to build. In this conversation. I'm going to give you the foundation to work confidently every single day. And it's going to be super simple. I want you to have the time, energy and freedom for everything that you want in life. And I want you to start having it right now. To find a time that works for you visit linsibrownson.com